America's Dissenting Tradition-PBS Bill Moyers Journal- June 12, 2009

I object to the idea that America's leftist intellectuals have overlooked Thomas Paine.

As the so called "historians" themselves mentioned, Paine was one of the first writers to suggest that all citizens should receive a stipend from the government -- not a charity, but a right in exchange for recognizing other people's private claims to land. Rousseau is nodding in agreement and support.

Also it is important to know just how influential Tom was ... some speculate that the opening to the declaration of independence was essentially plagiarized from a pamphlet on the law of admiralty penned by Paine.

It is admirable that Paine felt the spirit of enlightenment to the extent that he drafted the Age of Reason. So in tangent, we should recognize that he first started the Age of Reason in a Parisian prison -- awaiting execution for a "crime" of which he was innocent. Rather similar to the situation in which Boethius penned his create masterpiece of humanist Christianity a little over a thousand years before. But the most interesting part of the age of reason is ben franklin's response, which I will now direct at whatever nitwit constantly posts richard dawkin torrents on this site:

"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it."

Full text here: http://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/benjamin-franklins-letter-to

In conclusion, I object to the sentiment that he was ever forgotten.

"I will now direct at whatever nitwit constantly posts richard dawkin torrents on this site:

"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it." "

If serious, this might imply that your position is that of the Grand Inquisitor. Correct?

It would.

I'm rather happy with a status quo that involves personal freedom to believe or not believe in silly stories. If you are of the mental capacity which limits you to belief in the fantastic, then if I am to share the streets with you, I'm rather glad you believe in an invisible patriach who will punish you if you misbehave. If you have the wherewithal to sort out some notion of truth and science, great.

Do not, however, go around spoiling my security by being an evangelical atheist. My god man, if these apes take up that 'non-religion' I fear it will be only a few days before they tear me to pieces. A healthy belief in God is the only thing preventing modern America from being Ferringinar (the ferrengi homeworld).

We're already treading a thin line between civilization and barbarism. Imagine the barbarism that would ensue if we lifted the only moral checks relating to poverty, kindness, etc. was lifted off these apes. Let them believe, for god's sake!

You made a good point. I do recognise that there are people to whom religion is necessary, for both their wellbeing and morality.

But still there are people to whom religion is the main reason for immorality and failure to recognise other peoples value. How would a healthy atheist consider someone evil or bad and thus unworthy of tolerable life? (I consider nazis and such a kind of religious as they usually have a strong belief in the fantastic - maybe devine origins or purpose of their race or group) People are social beings by nature and not because of religion. It might be religious belief that makes people tolerate the poverty or suffering of the others.

Well, I am scandinavian and the culture here might be a bit different, perhaps more homogenous and less scared and individualistic. So maybe I shouldn't force my opinion too much. 'the only moral checks' makes me smile though.

I would tend to agree, religious fundamentalism does need to be confronted. It's kind of a mixed bag.